Regarding the Transliteration of Mando'a...

Tal’jair Rusk · Unread post by **Tal’jair Rusk** » 21 Jan 2016 23:16

I'd like to get this as close to canon as possible

Vod, getting it as close to canon is pointless, since there is no old canon anymore. Everything Kar'buir did was flushed down the drain... So id just spit on any "canon" and do it the way i believed it should be.
Building a foundation for future development? Fantastic. Lets build it the way we want it. Or do you ask Republic Senate for approval before building a tapcaf in Keldabe?

Anyway, im glad that im not the only one having a splintering headache over the question if anybody needed this besides me and my family ( son started swearing in mando'a at school, you shoulda see the teachers face))

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 22 Jan 2016 00:52

Taljair te Mir'ad wrote:Vod, getting it as close to canon is pointless, since there is no old canon anymore. Everything Kar'buir did was flushed down the drain... So id just spit on any "canon" and do it the way i believed it should be.

Fair point for sure. I also don't want to rock the boat too much and basically shake up what everyone already knows to be true as it relates to Mando'a.

So I guess basically if I'm trying to do as little damage as possible to what is already understood, then it would make the most sense to stick with the Mando'a that's been established already.

Hmm... alrighty then, well I'll post my transliteration of it soon.

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 03 Feb 2016 21:41

Alrighty, massive spoilerpost of all the "new Romanization" Mando'a based on the Mando'a lettering from the dictionary included in Taljair's Total Guide. Please forgive the terrible Table formatting, I didn't want it to be a ridiculously long pagescroller post, lol...

I've also uploaded a raw, unformatted TXT file of the words here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3VsKE ... sp=sharing

Spoiler: show

Koja Kar Akaan'uliik · Unread post by **Koja Kar Akaan'uliik** » 31 May 2016 09:57

I had a thought. Could we use double vowels as a mnemonic for stress? That could make pronunciation easier to memorize and preserve the double-voweley feel of the language

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 31 May 2016 15:49

Koja Kar Akaan'uliik wrote:I had a thought. Could we use double vowels as a mnemonic for stress? That could make pronunciation easier to memorize and preserve the double-voweley feel of the language

I think that might actually be part of the original Romanization. I'm not opposed to keeping that around, but there are really very few words where such differentiation is significant so /shrug

Unless you mean double-vowel for ALL stressed syllables?

Koja Kar Akaan'uliik · Unread post by **Koja Kar Akaan'uliik** » 31 May 2016 21:37

A'nu Biss wrote:Unless you mean double-vowel for ALL stressed syllables?

Pretty much, or at least where it matters. If double vowels were once used to show stress, that ended a long time ago. I've been experimenting with spelling and it helps

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 01 Jun 2016 16:06

It's a possibility. The only thing I'm not certain about is how that would be represented in Mando'a script. Ideally, I'd like the Mando'a script and the Romanization to be 1:1 representations of the words.

Koja Kar Akaan'uliik · Unread post by **Koja Kar Akaan'uliik** » 02 Jun 2016 18:29

Hm. Precisely what do you mean by 1:1?

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 03 Jun 2016 18:35

Koja Kar Akaan'uliik wrote:Hm. Precisely what do you mean by 1:1?

Basically, each pronounced sound having a specific representation in Mando'a script and a specific representation in the Romanized form, so there can be no confusion.

Denoting stress in the Romanization would be fine as long as it didn't introduce confusion with the sounds produced in the word, but a similar non-disruptive method would be needed for denoting stress in the Mando'a script, for clarity's sake. Ideally, someone should be able to 1. Hear a word OR 2. See written Mando'a OR 3. See written Romanized form and be able to immediately know and produce all 3 from just a single one.

EDIT: An example of a problem with the existing Romanization, where it fails to meet this criterion, is apparent in the word "Su'cuy." From hearing it pronounced, I couldn't immediately know that it was spelled that way in the Romanization. At first thought, it would seem to be "sukuy" or "sukui." Given the randomness of how the current Romanization assigns representation of sounds, someone who has not taken the tedious effort to do the rote memorization of all vocabulary in the language would not be able to tell you how it is spelled from the pronunciation alone. The Mando'a script (taboo/"non-canon" as it may be) is much clearer, as the '-uy-' sound is a specific vowel, just as the 'hard K' sound is a specific consonant. The Romanization should complement, not detract from, this clarity.

joh'amur · Unread post by **joh'amur** » 05 Jun 2016 02:28

What about putting a horizontal bar over the stressed vowel when writing in the Mando'a script? I'm no good when it comes to working with fonts, so I'm not sure how difficult that'd be to implement into a font.

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 06 Jun 2016 15:37

joh'amur wrote:I'm no good when it comes to working with fonts, so I'm not sure how difficult that'd be to implement into a font.

There are things that exist like that, such as in typed Thai language where vowels are written around the consonants they go with (i.e.: ดี, pronounced "dee" vs. ด, just the 'd' sound).
No idea how to make that happen in a user-created font, but since it does exist there's probably a guide on it out there somewhere.

Tal’jair Rusk · Unread post by **Tal’jair Rusk** » 06 Jun 2016 19:54

I dont think that a warrior society could devise such a complicated writing system. We're not Tolkien's Noldor, lets keep it as simple as we can.

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 06 Jun 2016 22:40

Taljair te Mir'ad wrote:I dont think that a warrior society could devise such a complicated writing system. We're not Tolkien's Noldor, lets keep it as simple as we can.

Eh.. that's up for debate. Whether the writing system is complex or simple is largely irrelevant (Thai is actually fairly simple), what is likely is that Mando'a would be incredibly efficient. A warrior society would want messages communicated and understood quickly and clearly without a lot of extra fluff or room for interpretation.

To that end, Thai actually does fit that bill surprisingly well. No tenses, no verb conjugations, no noun cases. Words do not change in Thai, the nuances of their meanings are easily determined through context. However Thai falls short in the fact that it's a tonal language. A warrior race's language would need to be similarly clear and concise whether yelled or whispered on the battlefield, the listener being required to pick out subtle tone differences in the words his/her commander is shouting doesn't make sense at all.

The closest language I've seen to one that actually fits very well with what a warrior race's language would look like is Mongolian. What a surprise, an actual warrior society

joh'amur · Unread post by **joh'amur** » 25 Jun 2016 20:39

A'nu Biss wrote:It's a possibility. The only thing I'm not certain about is how that would be represented in Mando'a script. Ideally, I'd like the Mando'a script and the Romanization to be 1:1 representations of the words.

Adi'karta wrote:I'm separating your list by consonants vs vowels, mostly for my own notes:

Consonants: (IPA transcription reference)

Spoiler: show
[tr][th]sound[/th][th]IPA[/th][th]examples[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]m[/td][td]m[/td][td]man, mom[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]n[/td][td]n[/td][td]no, night[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]d[/td][td]d[/td][td]dive, dark[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]r[/td][td]ɹ[/td][td]right, red[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]h[/td][td]h[/td][td]hate, hide[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]b[/td][td]b[/td][td]bind, rubber[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]y[/td][td]j[/td][td]yes, yard[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]t[/td][td]t[/td][td]top, tight[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]sh[/td][td]ʃ[/td][td]shoot, push[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]j[/td][td]dʒ[/td][td]jump, jedi[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]k[/td][td]k[/td][td]black, attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]l[/td][td]l[/td][td]label, light[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]s[/td][td]s[/td][td]sit, saber[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]v[/td][td]v[/td][td]victory, vice[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]p[/td][td]p[/td][td]place, pet[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]z[/td][td]z[/td][td]zap, fizz[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]g[/td][td]g[/td][td]ghost, give[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ch[/td][td]tʃ[/td][td]cheese, fetch[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]w[/td][td]w[/td][td]why, water[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]f[/td][td]f[/td][td]fate, food[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]'[/td][td]ʔ[/td][td]uh-oh, little (with British accent)[/td][/tr][/table]
Vowels: (IPA transcription reference - note: interpretation is contingent upon my Miwdest American accent and may not be perfectly representative)

Spoiler: show
[tr][th]sound[/th][th]IPA[/th][th]examples[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]a[/td][td]ä[/td][td]father, haha -- One thing I'm unclear on with this letter, it can apparently also be 'æ' as in bat, man? Are there rules on when?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]o[/td][td]o[/td][td]open, old[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]e[/td][td]e[/td][td]day, okay[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ê[/td][td]ɛ[/td][td]bet, step[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ee[/td][td]i[/td][td]flee, bleed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]u[/td][td]u[/td][td]flute, cool -- Another one here. This one is both 'u' and 'ə/ʊ" sounds? As in look, put?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]û[/td][td]ʌ[/td][td]but, cut, stuck[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]î[/td][td]ɪ[/td][td]tip, spit[/td][/tr][/table]
Diphthongs/Glides: (no transcription reference -- best-guess transcription)

Spoiler: show
[tr][th]sound[/th][th]IPA[/th][th]examples[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]ai[/td][td]ai[/td][td]die, fly, eye[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]oi[/td][td]oi[/td][td]boy, exploit[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ui[/td][td]ui[/td][td]buoy, gooey, suey[/td][/tr][/table]
Notes on your questions: I have no idea if there are specific rules on when. Can you provide an example or two of each situation from the Mando'a dictionary?

Also, here's a chart of the consonants from the MANDOR font:

Spoiler: show

After a little bit of research, I was finally able to find a way to add some sort of stress markers to vowels in the Mando'a script font! It stands to reason, as A'nu Bliss said, to have a one to one representation from the Romanization to the Mando'a scripts. I had previously had the idea to add horizontal bars across the stressed vowels; however, I decided to replace the bars with filled-in dots above (because that was so much easier

), except for the Mando'a letter of "uy" because there is already a dot-like symbol within it in the first place. I used the vertical bar over that letter in the font.

For the font, I simply took the font from this url: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3VsKE ... 0tWWM/view and added the necessary markings over the vowels.

Here's a link to the new font: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4QEII ... g4cWc/view

Guide to Place of Vowels within the font:
IPA= ä, Unstressed form ("A" in romization)= a (lower-case A in font), Stressed Form ("Aa" in Romnization)= A (capital A in font)
IPA= o, Unstressed form ("o")= o, Stressed Form ("oo")= O
IPA= e, Unstressed form ("e")= q, Stressed Form ("ee")= ¡
IPA= ɛ, Unstressed Form ("ê")= e, Stressed Form ("êê")= E
IPA= i, Unstressed Form ("i")= &, Stressed Form ("ii")= ¢
IPA= u, Unstressed Form ("u")= ], Stressed Form ("uu")= ¤
IPA= ʌ, Unstressed Form ("û")= u, Stressed Form ("ûû")= U
IPA= ɪ, Unstressed Form ("î")= i, Stressed Form ("îî")= I
IPA= ai, Unstressed Form ("ai")= [, Stressed Form ("aai")= £
IPA= oi, Unstressed Form ("oi")= \, Stressed Form ("ooi")= ¥
IPA= ui, Unstressed form ("ui")= ;, Stressed Form ("uui")= ¦

And here's a side-by-side comparison of the old orthography, the revised Romanization, and the new font with symbols for stressed vowels:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4QEII ... sp=sharing

Tal’jair Rusk · Unread post by **Tal’jair Rusk** » 07 Jul 2016 07:43

Lost beten in your transcript. I do believe it has some significance

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 07 Jul 2016 16:06

Taljair te Mir'ad wrote:I do believe it has some significance

Certainly! Yeah probably be a good idea to add that one back in there somewhere...

joh'amur · Unread post by **joh'amur** » 07 Jul 2016 23:22

Taljair te Mir'ad wrote:Lost beten in your transcript. I do believe it has some significance

Ner Dunar (Ner dunaar)! The Windows International keyboard is not a fan of writing a single apostrophe, and that's what beten is in the font. I have changed the link in my original post to the same sentence I used, now with beten.

Also, would it be acceptable to write the caret (^) after the vowels with them in the reformed orthography (e^ for ê, eeˆ for êê, etc.) if you aren't able to place the carets over the vowels with the keyboard that you have?

Enaris · Unread post by **Enaris** » 22 Jul 2016 22:47

Looks like the revised comparison is using General Punctuation 2019 ('), whereas a beten is actually basic latin 0022 (") - this should alleviate the international keyboard issue, no?

I'm not going insane, right, the beten is a two-stroke character? I'm not going to argue whether it should be, but, historically it has been.

Anyways, this is pretty exciting. My only gripe is that accent marks on the Mando'a typeface make it take even longer to handwrite xP

An'u Biss · Unread post by **An'u Biss** » 01 Aug 2016 17:52

Agreed, and yes it technically is the two-stroke character. My reasoning for using the basic apostrophe was just ease of typing the new typeface

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