Mandalorian Time System

[Vlet Hansen]

24 clock is the global standard, yes, but the US Navy (if nobody else) still uses the bell system afloat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship%27s_bell
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/questions/bells.html

[Adi'karta]

Huh. I was always under the impression that the bells system was confusing, but that opinion was based entirely on hearsay, as I never bothered to do the research. Looking at it in that chart on the navy.mil site, it looks so clear and simple. 7 watches, 5 of which are 4 hours, the remaining two 2 hours to allow for eating evening meal. Pretty straightforward. Perhaps we should look at this bells system for some inspiration.

[Adi'karta]

So in response to the time system Taljair found elsewhere online:

The piece didn’t give the transcription or translation to the terms, so I figured they could be called like this:
Second - kis’lun
30 seconds (minute) - kumana
32 minutes (hour) - getu
9 hours (period) - hakba
10 periods (day) - tuur

I've come up with a slightly-less-arbitrary modification on the idea which divides nicely into a circle:

30 seconds = 1 minute (1/2 real minute)
30 minutes = 1 hour (15 real minutes) = 900 seconds
12 hours = 1 watch (3 real hours) = 10800 seconds
8 watches = 1 day (24 real hours) = 86400 seconds

I still have an issue though, with how short hours are and how short a watch is (but that's probably just because I was raised telling time with the 24/60/60 system). On the flip side, having short watches means changing the guard more frequently which means more-attentive less-bored guards.

And now for the rambling thinking-out-loud:

Sleep: With 1 watch being 3 real hours, that makes 2 full REM cycles in a common baseline Human, making it easier to ensure well-rested and alert soldiers (who would sleep for 2, 2.5, or 3 watches depending on their biological predisposition -- that converts to 6, 7.5, and 9 real hours or 4, 5, and 6 complete REM cycles respectively). A 2-watch sleeper would have 6 waking watches in which to do work and recreation, and a 3-watch sleeper would have 5 waking watches.

Work/Life: Every soldier would probably have 2 on-duty watches per day and any remaining time between on-duty watches would be recreation time. The work-day might end up being 3 watches long (9 real hours), with the first and last watch on-duty, and the middle watch spent performing clerical/maintenance tasks. Or 2 consecutive watches and a partial third watch for the low-intensity tasks. Non-active-military members of society would have somewhat more-flexible schedules.

Hunger: Meals for military personnel could take place between every second watch, making for 4 meals per day (with at least 3 occurring during the waking day for each soldier). Alternatively there could be a smaller meal between every single watch (with at least 6 occurring during the waking day for each soldier), resulting in eating every 3 real hours (for optimal regulation of blood sugar, small meals every 3-4 real hours are recommended). Meals could take the first and last hour (30 real minutes total) of each watch, patterned so as to ensure that half the on-duty staff was eating at any given time.

...of course, we could just stick with normal Terran time and still split the day into 8 watches (I say 8 rather than simply suggesting adopting the Navy's 6 because it still meshes better with human REM cycles, while both work pretty well with human eating patterns.

[Vlet Hansen]

I heartily support this system.

The smaller time divisions make it easier to adapt it to different orbital periods, too, seeing as Manda'yaim has a much shorter period than Earth and Coruscant...

[Vazquar Tra'tabuur]

Seems to make sense to me.

[Tal’jair Rusk]

The proposed system seems easier and more logical to me, i agree to that.
What about the words we use for time pieces? hour, minute, etc.? We keep the ones I found?

[Vlet Hansen]

I see no reason not to.

[Tal’jair Rusk]

So by my calculations 19:15 will be 5th hour of 7th watch. And you say it like this:
Bic rayshe'a getu'e be e'tadyc hakba.
Or am I wrong?

[Adi'karta]

5th hour of the 7th watch seems correct to me. I should whip up a converter or something, because that was an annoying chain of math to do (straightforward, but too many steps) to convert manually. I can't back you or oppose you on the translation -- I'm re-examining the proposed time words, as I'm trying to decipher where whomever proposed them got the word roots for them (they all seem pretty arbitrary at first glance).

[Tal’jair Rusk]

I made a simple converter in Excel, took me an hour to fix the calculation. But it works. About the new words - I'd keep them just to honour someone who did the work on MLD.pdf in the first place. Those few pages made me start learning mando'a in the first place, along with Kar'buir's books.
And maybe move this discussion to Mandalorian culture as well?

[Tal’jair Rusk]

Finished the calculator i told about before.
The thing able to translate 24 hour earth time into mandalorian variant. Also in addition calculator for mando calendar and phrase generator for telling time and date in mando'a.

[Vlet Hansen]

I love it!

[Tal’jair Rusk]

Fixed a few bugs, polished some details, should work more nicely now.

[Tal’jair Rusk]

Something like this:
Mando: 2:11:10:11
which equals
Earth: 8:50:11

[yatenari]

Okay, I know this thread is a bit older, but well ... I just thought I'd share my compact converting formula, maybe someone else can use it as well.

I was thinking of incorporating the 'Mando' time in blogposts - of course, wanting to overwrite the system's timestamp would be quite a bit more difficult than I have the knowledge to do. So, instead, I was thinking of simply adding it to a post design. Since I already create the necessary code via Excel to copy/paste into the blog (sparing the effort of needing to fiddle with the code manually, so I can concentrate on the content itself), I thought of taking the time system and putting it into a more compact way to make the necessary convertions.
A written out sentence would need some programming behind it, and the conversion itself could be implemented in a single formula, so I stuck with the formula (especially since there was not a need to go that extra mile for my purposes).

This works on the basis of how Excel stores times, namely as values between 0 and 1, with 1 being a full day of 24 hours, and the Mandalorian time being based on the same number of seconds. Excel calculates the time by using the 24/60/60 system (I have made the calculations by hand and put them in spoilers if anyone wants to know the background to my formula).

Spoiler: show

In Excel, if we have the time 12:06:40 it gives the value 0,50462962962963.

12 hours = (1/24)*12 = 0,5
6 minutes = ((1/24)/60)*6 = 0,0041667
40 seconds = (((1/24)/60/60)*40 = 0,0004629

which, added up, gives us the value 0,5046296 (which is rounded since I didn't have more digits on my pocket calculator).

So, whatever time we input, as long as it is the correct format (hh:mm[:ss]) we will get a number that is somewhere between 0 and 1. Thus, we can use the same technique in reverse to get a time from a number. We divide the given value through the factor (1/24) and continue on with the remainder, dividing it through (1/24)/60 and so on.

0,50462962962963/(1/24) = 12 R 0,00462962962963001
0,00462962962963001/((1/24)/60) = 6 R 0,000462962962963345
0,000462962962963345/(((1/24)/60)/60) = 40 R [...]

Thus, we get a time of 12:06:40 back from the number. While it is a bit redundant to do this in Excel with the 24/60/60 system, since it is already implemented in the different formatting, doing it manually with a combination of the function [GANZZAHL / INT] and [REST / MOD] gives, disregarding formatting and the fact that seconds could theoretically be further divided, this kind of formula:

Code: Select all

=GANZZAHL(A1/(1/24))&":"&GANZZAHL(REST(A1;(1/24))/((1/24)/60))&":"&GANZZAHL(REST(REST(A1;(1/24));((1/24)/60))/(((1/24)/60)/60))

where A1 is the cell with the time value (between 0 and 1)

For Mandalorian time, we could simply exchange the necessary values - and add a further division, since we have need of four numerals - and have it calculated in one single cell:

Code: Select all

=GANZZAHL(A1/(1/8))&":"&GANZZAHL(REST(A1;(1/8))/((1/8)/12))&":"&GANZZAHL(REST(REST(A1;(1/8));((1/8)/12))/(((1/8)/12)/30))&":"&GANZZAHL(REST(REST(REST(A1;(1/8));((1/8)/12));(((1/8)/12)/30))/((((1/8)/12)/30)/30))

where A1 is the cell with the time value (between 0 and 1)

For the example time of 12:06:40 this gives a Mandalorian time of 04:00:13:10.

This formula is from the German version of Excel, so it might have to be changed to work with the English version. For one, the function names have to be replaced - resulting in

Code: Select all

=INT(A2/(1/8))&":"&INT(Mod(A2;(1/8))/((1/8)/12))&":"&INT(Mod(Mod(A2;(1/8));((1/8)/12))/(((1/8)/12)/30))&":"&INT(Mod(Mod(Mod(A2;(1/8));((1/8)/12));(((1/8)/12)/30))/((((1/8)/12)/30)/30))

but since I don't have an English version, I can't test if it works just like that (and there are probably ways to make this a bit neater still).

[yatenari]

Using some time on my hand and deciding that this would be a good way to try and adapt what I found in this tutorial on how to create a working analog clock in Excel, I thought I should make a "Mandalorian Clock".

The clock is based on the design by Taljair, but the second hand moves along the same track as the minute hand, since I for now don't know how to give the different hands separate origins on the clockface. So, this clock has four hands on three differently numbered circles. Their length and colour can be adjusted, and the clockface can be changed as well, since it is simply an image in a diagram.
It only works with macros (the clock is started by clicking a button which starts a timer function and I have included several user defined functions I use to quickly convert "normal" time to Mandalorian time (and back))

[Vlet Hansen]

That is some exceptional work, vod!

[Vlet Hansen]

Having looked at the clock more now that I have that file, it seems to me the most convenient way to refer to time would be the first two measurements and maybe a half, when talking about casual references.

Tion ca'nara jii?

Cuir-cuir bal dul!

EDIT: also, as I was looking at it, I thought it was indexing incorrectly, but it was just a difference in style between the two of us. That clock indexes the hakba from zero. This is standard for anything but a watch schedule, so for most clock purposes that's fine, but mentally I was still stuck on the watch cycle, and there isn't usually a zeroth watch. So, for anyone using that, just be aware of the way it indexes.

[yatenari]

Mh, I suppose that's right concerning the indexing (it's not something I have thought about, since I went with "clock" mentally and didn't really think about what it might mean). One might look at it like how centuries are counted, I guess, as the clock indicating only the finished watch, so the first watch naturally would be finished at 01 instead of starting at 01.

The change in indexing should be fairly simple for the calculation of time itself, if hakba is counted from 1 to 9 instead of 0 to 8, since there simply needs to be added 1 to the normal calculation, I think. The change is easy in itself.

Maybe I go back and try to enable a different indexing within the formula/function - who says there can only be one clock style? After all, I already now a few regional differences in telling "normal" time, so there is no reason why there couldn't be a structural difference for it in Mando'a. Maybe with adding a small heads-up on what system is used specifically if dealing with Mando'ade from a different region ...



I'm also looking at how to make the date conversion more easy and "visual" in creating a calendar template that calculates the Mandalorian dates (considering the year has a length of 365,2524 days, so it would have the leap rules we have). I have a working formula for when the year starts at the 1st December (since it's the start of meteorological winter where I live and it seems more logical to me to go for seasons instead of using the 1st January), but the year starting on 1st January is easier to calculate, since there is no change in year involved for it. I will probably implement both cases for the calendar if I got the set-up cleaned up.
There is the issue of how many days a week in such a calendar should have (5 or 7 - since making it dynamic in that case would be difficult). Five is the original number, but looking at weekends, 7 days would be easier to use. That's not important for the date calculation, but if one wants to make an actual (printable) calendar of it which includes weeks and weekdays ... Thoughts on that?

[Vlet Hansen]

I wasn't thinking 1 to 9, just like the first three hours of the day being "within"the first watch. Like, whatever section the watch hand is pointing in is your hakba.

In terms of the calendar, I've seen things like the discordian calendar, using 5 day weeks, and while it's tricky it's still useful. There were fete weeks and stuff in the Star wars calendar, mucking it up a bit...